ximeria | There are...

Crap I need to find a beta for my Gilmore Girls fic now... thanks for that page though, it is muy helpful.

Heh, you're welcome. And yes it is. And not just to those who beta, but I feel, just as much to those who don't seem to know what a beta does. It's invaluable work.

Yeah, I was actually staring at this fanfic page I wanted to post to, reading "you should get a beta" in their little guide thingy... and then finding more no information on their site about finding said beta.

And then your magical post clarified things a great deal for me! ^_^

Finding a beta is really difficult. It's easy to find yes-men and back-patters, especially of the type who are new to the fandom and want to latch on to a BNF, but an actual beta who wants to *gasp* make an effort? No.

There are betafinding communities in many fandoms, though, and you can maybe find links to them in the user-info of GG coms you're already aware of.

What works best, but is also really embarrassing and pushy, is asking people who have not offered. The people who commented to the beta-reading post, and authors in your fandom whose work you admire. You might get a lot of no's, or some people might say yes just to be polite, but not actually have time to do it right, but you also just might get lucky.

Or, you can edit your fic yourself, putting it aside for some time so you can look at it with relatively fresh eyes, then post it and write in an author's note that you have edited it yourself, take editing very seriously, and are actively looking for beta-readers. If people like your fic well enough, you'll probably hook one ^_^

Yeah I actually prefer to do everything myself, not so much a team player myself :x

But I do know I need to work on how to transition dialogue, since I usually write more poetic things with internal dialogue and no quotation marks.

I actually have a non-gg fan friend who is going to proof some stuff for me right now, thankfully! But that Author-Note thing is a great suggestion, I am definitely going to do that when I finally get around to posting my fic! Thanks!

Crap that was me >_>

I feel the same way about dialogue. I envy writers who can "hear" the characters talk when they write, instead of having to struggle with it the way I do. I tend to stick to more poetic, internal dialogue myself, but I do want to work on it and learn to do both.

Good for you finding a proof-reader! Honestly, if you take your own fic seriously, I'm sure you know exactly what you're doing regarding characterization and canon, and don't apologize for not needing or wanting a beta-reader for that. All you owe your readers imo is proof-reading, because that is something nearly impossible to do yourself.

I sometimes reread my old fic and find really obvious typos, that I just couldn't see back when I remembered what I meant to write ^_^

I also need someone to kick my butt about pacing, balance and whether what I'm trying to convey comes across at all, but I don't think that needs to be done by someone familiar with canon.

I sometimes reread my old fic and find really obvious typos, that I just couldn't see back when I remembered what I meant to write ^_^

Yes I have totally been there! I also get so much in my head sometimes that I leave out obvious details that I see mentally, and then when I got back to read a while later, I realize that I moved the characters to a new location without ever saying so... >_>

LOL. I think that's my biggest challenge - figuring out what is obvious, and what is obvious only in my head.

I don't think I've managed a change of location like that, but then I'm not what you'd call a prolific writer. I usually only write stories that pop whole into my head, no tinkering required, or silly challenges co-written with Ximeria. I'm intimidated by the huge project it would be to put my longer stories into words, so I just tell them to myself in my head and leave it at that.

Wow we are very similar! :O

I usually just work out my epic ideas in my head, and leave it at that! It's my own form of night time entertainment, I've done that since I was very small.

Currently I'm working on my first, hopefully epic, story and I feel like I can do it because it's mostly internal dialogue and ranting.

Currently I'm working on my first, hopefully epic, story and I feel like I can do it because it's mostly internal dialogue and ranting. Bwahahahaha! :-D

UR my soulmate, obviously. Whaddaya know, my first online fandom was ST:V.

Did you ever read The Never Ending story? I liked it, but it pissed me off so bad that the author kept prompting the reader with teasing off-shoots from the main plot and then saying "but that's a story I'll leave it to you to imagine" - as if I've ever needed prompts or permission from an author to write fanfic in my head, you patronizing idiot :-p

I never much liked reading under the comforter with a flash-light, so when my mom forced me to turn off the lamp I would always continue the story I was reading from the point where I stopped, or flesh out back story, or imagine new situations for my favorite characters.

I don't think I ever did it with TV shows when I was little, though? Except of course for taking it for granted that Ernie and Bert were married, and they just had twin beds like Doris Day and Rock Hudson because it was on TV and Americans are Puritans.

Hahaha that's so awesome, my first fandom was St:V too! I was in a round-robin fanfic community called The Storykeeper's Sanctuary on the Star Trek: Voyager Starfleet Database (stvsd.com), it died when the website died >_>

I sort of stopped fic'ing after that. Well until Gilmore Girls, I don't know what it is about that show, but I am finding myself completely obsessed. The whole community is pulling me in too, they're really close and have charity auctions monthly where authors auction themselves/their skills off.

Mostly my internal stories involved me waking up on Voyager, interacting with the crew and figuring out how to get home or how I got there! Normally, it was Q of course, because he can help explain any plot hole. My earliest memory regarding plotting stuff in my head I think was X-Files related, when I was 10 or so, I so wanted Mulder and Scully to get married. :x

I miss round robins! In many ways I prefer LJ based fandoms, so much less drama, much easier to avoid the mean and cliquish people, but that sense of community you got on a list based or website based fandom is missing.

I'm not a fan of GG, but I will say, Cute Dean is Cute. Do you watch Supernatural? Hello yellow polo-shirt caressing JP's magnificent chest ^_~

I've never been into Mary Sueing, but I've read that it's extremely common to start out in fandom that way. I've always tended to identify more with the characters, and assumed I wouldn't like living in their world, or even necessarily get along with my fave characters if I met them in rl.

I was an X-phile too! I slashed Mulder with Skinner and Krycek, and shipped Scully with Pendrell. The Mulder/Scully ship made me uncomfortable because of the co-dependency and incestuous vibe, which is funny since I slash Sam/Dean now. I guess the difference is that the fans who are into that pairing at least acknowledge how emotionally dangerous it is, whereas Mulder/Scully shippers from my superficial impression of them did not. I recently read a quite good Mulder/Scully, Scully/Krycek fic series which was recced on crack van: Prone, #2 Unnatural Tendencies and #3 Substitutes. Excellent fics, completely in character, and made me believe in the Mulder/Scully ship for the first time ever. Don't be put off by the Scully/Krycek, it's one-sided and non-con, and it all makes sense.

Oh god, the dramaz in the RPG Round-Robins was insaaaane.

Not a fan of Supernatural because of JP, I haaaated Dean on the series soooooo much. >_>

And oh God the Mary-Sues... there was one girl in our RPG round-robnis we did all the time that was a total Mary Sue. We wrote plot twists in that prevented her from being a Mary Sue all the time. Although writing yourself in doesn't have to be considered Mary Sueing, Mary Sueing is more so making yourself god and emperor of the universe.

I really wanted to write a Gilmore Girls fic with an outsiders perspective, basically from a demented a character that would never have been written into the show due to it's large "family" following.

Haha that's so awesome! I cringe when I think back to how I was a J/Cer from Voyager fic... I not only find them not a right match these days, I find the entire concept repulsive. I guess it doesn't help that I grew to hate Chakotay in season 7. But I also cringed back then, and now, at J/7 fic pairings. I'm not not to stray from real cannon really, I tend to like to slash characters that are actually together in their respective series.

Although, did you ever hear of Mistress Janeway? Now that was pretty awesome! My first smut!fic XD

Not a fan of Dean? I guess I can understand why you aren't interested in watching Spn, then. I try to separate how I feel about a character and an actor, but often fail. I don't even want to start watching Lie to Me or Castle because I've seen the leads in roles where they've creeped me out.

I've only taken part in a fanfic rpg once, in Smallville. It was horrible. The kind of round robin I thought you meant, and that I miss, is the traditional fic writing kind, where each participant writes a chapter, no role playing involved.

I do disagree slightly with you on the definition of a Mary Sue. I have only seen very, very few author self-inserts that I would not consider Mary Sues. But never mind, semantic quibbling ^_^

I'm not into established canon pairings, be they het or gay. I don't consider canon gay pairings to be slash, and while I also don't consider Mulder/Scully "slash", Mulder/Scully, Buffy/Spike, Veronica/Logan (before it became canon) is closer to what I understand by "slash" than Willow/Tara or Jack/Ianto. It's a certain character dynamic and flavor I look for and enjoy, as well as the creative freedom to write endless variations on the off screen relationships without conflicting with canon.

That's not to say I never ship established pairings, I do. I just don't write or read fic about them.

I wasn't in Voyager fandom for very long. I slashed Kim/Paris and Paris/Chakotay, and shipped Torres/Paris, but I felt insulted and excluded by the way the producers did everything they could to kill the slashiness, and the way they disrespected the characters of Chakotay and Torres, so I didn't stick around. I was gone long before 7of9 showed up.

Mistress Janeway sounds vaguely familiar as a title, but I'm not sure I've read any of the series. Was one of the stories a group sex scene, where Janeway provides her own natural lube?

I like your idea for introducing a character like that in the GG world. That's how I always feel about Seventh Heaven.

Oh the Round-Robin was everything, we just got into RPG stuff a lot towards the end, there was some hilarious stuff. The biggest one was basically a crew of Starfleet people that we all role-played, that is stranded in the DQ and runs into Voyager, the interaction goes from there. But we also did totally hilarious RPGs, all the men get pregnant, stuff like that. And even in our most serious RPGs, the commander in our crew was a humanoid purple kitty. There was a bit of a Red Dwarf thing that also kept getting written in.

I loved Kim/Paris!! Ahhh one of the best early gay slash ever!! I also really liked the Paris/Torres ship and was very happy when they got together on the show, and I stuck around to the end, even though the show was basically imploding upon itself.

And I did a search for Mistress Janeway and found it first hit, apparently it was updated until 2004!
http://www.squidge.org/novad/MJaneway/index.html

I sort of stopped being a Janeway fan after I finally met Kate Mulgrew early this month, I think I just came full circle!

Oh yeah, that is the series I was thinking of! You were involved in writing that?

Wow, everything you say about those rpgs you were in sounds perfectly horrible to me ^_~ I will never, ever understand the attraction. To each her own, I guess.

A friend of mine has been reading and writing fic for *years* on quizilla and was shocked and baffled when I revealed the wider fanfic world for her.

Meeting Kate Mulgrew made you *stop* being a Janeway fan? That's hilarious.

Oh, and Paris/Kim, early slash? Huh?

Which series?

I think I was not much of a Kate Mulgrew fan for a while, but I still hoped to meet her one day because I was really inspired by Voyager. After I met her and realized she really didn't care to meet any of her fans that day, I mean, she;s just a normal person, I sort of decided to was time to move on! ^_^;

I don't remember much fanfic pre-star trek, which is why I say, early slash. I am sure there was other stuff.

You said "Although, did you ever hear of Mistress Janeway? Now that was pretty awesome! My first smut!fic XD", which I took to mean that it was your fic.

As for early slash fic, maybe you meant early in your fandom experience. Sorry if I misunderstood you. Slash fic has been around for a long time, certainly since the sixties in semi-organized form.

I generally try to avoid meeting or seeing interviews with the actors who portray my favorite characters, in case they spoil my fun ^_~
The characters are the products of the actors, the writers, the directors, the costume and make-up designers, and so on, but it's difficult to keep that perspective, and I've often felt very disappointed and turned off when an actor is radically different from his or her character. For example in the case of Martin Freeman and the character Tim from The Office. It's not fair on the actor to expect him to be as funny and clever, but when he's just *not*, and still has the same face and body-language, well, it's a turn-off for me.

Ah yeah I just meant that I had enjoyed it :)

I've met a lot of my favorite actors, mostly from SciFi shows, and mostly had great experiences. Only a few ruined it for me, like Jewel Staite, I think she annoyed most of the con-goers.

I've met people from Voyager, TNG, TOS, B5, Farscape, Stargate, Doctor Who, mostly they're great people! The Farscape and B5 people are the most fun I think ^_^

Yours and katejaneway's user icons should get married have lots of little coffee beans.

Amen sister. And when you find a beta like the above, you should keep a very tight hold of them, because they are worth their weight in gold

*eyes

nora_charles and chains*

LOL

Thank you for the link, it was a great post, and a lot of fun to see other betas whining about the same things I always do.

I'm still pissed about that certain author who dared to ignore all my advice and *STILL PUT MY NAME ON HER PIECE OF UNEDITED CRAP FIC*, and considered posting about it, but then again, I don't want to be that whiny in public when everyone else is talking about their pachydermic hide.

To anyone reading this and feeling horrified and repulsed: her fic wasn't really a piece of crap, but it did have some issues. I would normally never make fun of a fic I had the privilege of seeing in its vulnerable state, and you'll notice I'm not naming names or fandoms, but to me, as an editor, posting something obviously unedited (huge plot hole, lots of spelling and grammar errors, lots of factual (canon and science) errors) and saying it has been beta-read by me MAKES HULK SMASH!

Or you know, makes me whine about it forever to my friends.

Oh, I know how much that bugs you. See, to me, and I know, to Nicci as well, the beta process is part of the fun *g*

Yes, and I guess you've spoiled me. I'm used to authors who enjoy the beta process, and appreciate the effort I put into my comments. Sure, I've had authors bail on me, but then they don't usually mail me to tell me they're looking forward to continuing our collaboration, and thank me by name. It's just bizarre behavior.

What I'm kind of laughing about now, though, is that the person in question is a *very* active beta-reader, to several BNFs.

That's great advice, even as I realize that I burned out on doing beta some time ago. It really can eat your brain ;)

Oh yes, I don't beta all that often, but I have the utmost respect for the people who do so and enjoy it ^_^

I remember that time you took part in that comment exchange for finished, posted fics. That was really fun! I think you wrote awesome comments, really constructive and useful, and also really diplomatic and nice, and tempered with encouragement and praise.

It's especially funny since I saw your face when you first read the fic, and you had this look of blank horror, like "where do I even *begin*?"

The very reasons you find writing easy are also why you find beta-reading difficult, I think. You feel the fic, the characters, the flow. You know when it feels right and when it feels wrong, but of course "your fic feels wrong" is not very constructive, so you have to work at breaking it down and putting it into words.

I on the other hand automatically pick everything apart, so breaking a story down is no problem, I'm just terrible at building one myself ^_^

Oh, the problem is, when I get used to picking out errors, I have trouble enjoying reading any fic at all XD

Well, you'll just have to do what I do, and only read good fic. Stop torturing yourself with mediocre to bad Torchwood and Merlin fic. I don't know about Torchwood, but I think there ought to be enough good Merlin fic to keep you entertained.

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