ximeria | Question

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Question

I've just been going over a beta from

j_s_cavalcante and something occured to me. She brought my attention to a few things that I've taken to doing when writing. I've occasionally used odd sentences/metaphors etc that are not standard English.

What I'd like to know is, does that break your reading or don't you even notice? I've used the term 'to paint the devil on the wall' in a firefly story. It means to not worry about something beforehand, to not expect the worst of a situation. In a DS story I had 'as bent as a willow in a wind tunnel' about Ray's sexual orientation (that one was supplied by Nicci, btw LOL)

So, do you give it much thought or do you just read right through without noticing? Does it annoy you? I mean, of course sometimes it's a blooper on my part, using a term wrong or in the wrong context as such. That of course needs to be rooted out, but apart from that? I do sometimes use terms or phrase something differently on purpose. I'm not American, I'm not British. I have other terms and idioms to lean against, and sometimes it's just, at least to me, quirky fun to just translate them straight instead of finding the 'right' one. I'm sure only

goddesindia78 will get the term 'the toilet is on fire' although, you might get the idea of what is meant by it. She, on the other hand, will be holding her stomach, laughing a certain body part off LOL

On a different note, I read an article the other day, in a Danish newspaper. It was a short article about how young people handle stress. They're stressed by the thought of getting the right education, getting through it and getting the perfect job. So, there'd been a survey on how they handled stress. The article mentioned that in the UK, young people took to eating junk food and drinking alcohol. In Denmark? They masturbate...

Seriously, I love my country YAY much ROFL

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I would say no, it doesn't trow me out of the story. When I read a phrase like your examples, I read it as an interesting/creative way to say something. As long as it doesn't sound like something the character wouldn't say, no problem. I wouldn't make the connection that "oh, that's a foreign idiom" -- I would really just think the author was creative/had a way with words. The thing that would throw me out of the story -- or at least give me pause -- is use of foreign terms (well, terms foreign to whatever culture the characters exist in) -- for example, "water closet" instead of bathroom, or "bin" instead of trash can. Of course, if it's a British show, then those terms are appropriate.

I get what you mean, yes. I have an advantage, actually LOL -- Not being either Brit or American, I can actually choose, before I start a story, if I want to use the American terms or the British. To me it depends on either what origin the show has OR what origin the character has. For example, I use American terms when I write from Ray Kowalski's POV, but I'll just as easily lean toward a more British tone if I write from Fraser's. I know Fraser's Canadian, not British, but it's a way of keeping their voices apart as well. Besides, Brit English is easier to keep more formal than American is, and it suits Fraser better.

It doesn't really bother me unless it's in dialogue. If, say, Jack O'Neill were to say, "Don't paint the devil on the wall, Daniel," that'd be a problem.

I probably wouldn't even notice if it came from the narrator.

Unless I was beta-reading, in which case I might ask the writer about it.

Of course, in Firefly, who knows? I'd probably head off to my Chinese-language resources to see if it's a Chinese idiom. 8-)

Oh now, I'd never use a term, on pupose, that didn't fit the character. Daniel could get away with a lot if I base it on another language/culture. Jack? Never. It helps that Richard Dean Anderson is American -- so watching the show has formed Jack as an American right from the beginning. It's always a danger when casting Canadians -- don't get me wrong, I adore Canadians. Look at Dr. Weir on Atlantis. She's supposed to be American, but she has this thick Canadian accent. THAT would give me a problem if I tried to write her. I would be torn between writing her as an American, because she is that according to cannon, but her dialect screams Canadian... way to confuse the fanfic writers LOL

Yup, and just because Firefly is like that, I knew I could quite probably get away with it. Sometimes it's just hard explaining that to a beta reader.

I used another term from Ray Kowalski's POV in a Due South fic, but I think one can get away with it being Ray, because it's cannon that he sometimes mangles the language -- who knows if he's doing it on pupose, but that's a thing one can play with when writing.

Figurative speech, metaphors, similes are lovely. Bad grammar and inaccurate spelling throw me out of stories.

Oh, absolutely. It's one reason why I'm so dependent on a beta reader. By now, though, I've gotten so used to English grammar that I know exactly what you mean. Grammartical errors throw off my reading as well.

With Firefly, a lot of metaphoric phrases can be gotten away with because they can actually make sense for that universe. ;) But when I'm reading a story based in the US, like Stargate, and there are British phrases in narrative and dialogue--"tenterhooks" instead of "pins and needles" for a mild example--it throws me right out of the story because the characterization is ruined. Write the characters in their proper culture and the reader shouldn't be put off. I say "shouldn't" because we know everyone's different as to what will set them off. ;)

One thing that will set me off, and I therefore won't use, are homosexual euphemisms or metaphors because they're offensive to me. I've learned that a lot of gay men (that I know, I mean) don't much care for that, either. Some don't mind the word queer, some hate the word fag. The more "light" phrases and terms aren't any better. I've also learned that they don't like "as gay as " for being gay. While some guys are more nellie than others, I've seen writers use the descriptions, "more gay" or "less gay," which makes a negative implication and divides gays into groups of butch and nellie and overcompensating macho men--> all of them compared to straight men phrasing. Um, that might be okay for gays to go around saying to each other, but I'd no more use those phrases in a story--except from one gay to another(and as long as the gay alpha reader okayed it--than I'd use the word nigger.

I shoulda known better than posting such an innocent question, eh? *sniggers*

There are a lot of cultural differences between words and term, and once you move into a more closed well, I guess one could say community, such as the gay one, it really does become difficult to navigate. Which is why I don't use such terms, and even if I do, I'm sorry to say that I'm about bitch enough to not give a damn what others think. No really, I'm bi, leaning more toward women than men, I like the term queer because it covers more than just a sexual preference in my POV.

On top of all that, I don't write for gay men, I write for my own entertainment and that of my friends. I know it's a narrow minded way of thinking, but in my less than humble POV, there are enough people out there who try too hard to cater to everyone and their grandmother. I used to try to do that, I really did, but all it got me was a massive writer's block.

As for the N word, it would never ever cross my mind to use it, unless I was having a 'villian' or something similar spouting it. Apart from that I wouldn't touch it. Fag, queer, bent, varying levels of gayness? It's really so very far off my radar that I don't care about it. The biggest insult anyone can give me, is calling me 'normal'. I see what people base it on, and I so don't wanna be like that.

Bugger, I wandered off again, didn't I?

As for the Brit vs American spelling. I do what I consider the right way in my POV. I write it with American words/terms/slang if I'm writing in a fandom that's set in America. If the character, who's POV I'm using isn't American, I swing it into their culture instead. I use Brit for Canadian, mostly if I need the character to be more formal than American can ever get. The only character for whom I need that, is Fraser. He's a formal freak, even to the Canadians, so it works.

I kinda came off sounding a bit snot-ass, didn't I? Sorry. I got all up in the air about it and I should have just asked straight out. So, my question is, why would you have a character say, "he's as bent as a willow in a wind tunnel"? To me, that's derogatory. Is he or she meaning to be insulting of the gay character? If they are, never mind. But if the phrase is meant to be a joke, then I personally don't find that funny because I don't think making fun of gays, bis, trans is very funny--mostly because I'm tired of seeing it and if people can finally learn not to insult those who're of different ethnicities, they should be able to learn not to insult sexuality, too. But again, as you say, not everyone finds that phrase insulting. One can't please everyone because trying to tends to cause writer's block. One should always please oneself first, and if you're happy, most of your readers should be, too. :)

Hehehe, well, don't worry. You're one of those I give the benefit of doubt, because I know how I sometimes come across without wanting to.

The 'Bent as a willow...' comment was one Ray Kowalski made about himself, to head off a less than PC comment from one of the other cops, one who is in cannon a bit of an asshole soemtimes. It's entirely his own, not something someone else calls him. Ray says the weirdest stuff about himself on the show as well, so I had to get creative. In the story, Ray was out, for better or worse, handling starting at a new precinct with attitude, which is close to character.

I've used the oddest terms about myself just for the heck of it, mostly spurred by some derogatory comment from some idiot or another. I find it easy to deflect such comments by completely throwing people off. Mostly it comes out rather sarcastic, and unless they're beyond stupidity, they know I'm having fun on their expense.

Granted, though, there's a fine line between acceptable and horrible sometimes. I try not to cross it.

Thanks for explaining(and I hope you got my email). :))) It makes sense that a guy can refer to himself like that, for certain characters would do that metaphor thing. It also gives more depth to the character for me :) as opposed to narrative or another character saying it out of spite--we all know that phobes have no depth. ;)

I find it easy to deflect such comments by completely throwing people off. Mostly it comes out rather sarcastic, and unless they're beyond stupidity, they know I'm having fun on their expense.

I wish I could do that. When I hear someone display their stupidity, I go from zero to pissed in 5 seconds. When that happens, I'm unable to hide it. *sighs* If I'm not in pain or in a hurry and otherwise distracted, I usually call them on what they said and it matters not where I am. I can be in a grocery store, on the street, at WalMart, whatever.

Trust me, it takes heaps of patience. I've got an actual education as a store clerk (over here it takes a good 2 years in a store after commercial college or similar school) - one thing it's taught me over the years -- patience aplenty. I can always roll my eyes at the customers afterwards, LOL

And don't for one moment think it never gets me into trouble LOL -- I just have to have attitude. I'm only five foot four, but although I've been through shit, both on my own and with the family, I've had friends I could rely on, who've helped me stay true to myself.

email? Where'd you send it? Because I don't think I got anything apart from this via LJ notice.

I remember. ;) And dealing with the public... OMG, I can understand just having to stand in line behind the fuckwit who's giving my grocery store clerk an attitude. I usually say something to the clerk after the asshole has left. Something like, "There goes another pro argument for genetic resequencing." ;)

:) That's very cool. And five feet here. When someone looks down on me, I'm getting it physically as well. ;)

I sent the email to the addy you listed on your LJ profile. The popullus.net one. I used to have your address but my damn email client is being buggy and my newest profile didn't migrate the address book correctly. *sighs*

Hmmm, sounds odd, yeah, the mail should be ximeria at popullus dot net. If not, try ximeria at gmail dot com -- that should work nicely. I've checked the spamfilter as well, doesn't look like it went in there.

Yeah, I sent it there. Where the hell it went... *sighs* My ISP is a less commercialized one so it shouldn't have had a spam flag on it. Never mind. Resent to gmail. :)

Joy, have you absolutely jumped off the deep end?

Xim:
It is absolutely NEVER ok to use the "N" word in American culture unless you actually are an African American, not just pretending to be one, or a member of the KKK!
Also, I think that generally metaphors are wonderful and do not deter from American Character fanfic, but other things, like... We call it an elevator, not a lift, we sit in our living rooms, we don't have lounges, and we just really don't use the word whilst in the US, but it seems to be very popular in J/D fic, lol...

Thank you for the lecture. I'm 30 years old, I've had history, I had the American South and racial disturbances as part of English class at Business School for an entire year. You couldn't have known, I know.

Amazingly, you will find very few educated people on this side of the pond who would ever use the N word. Seriously, very few of us like the word.

I get the thing with the Brit vs American spelling, but I think I have to make a clarifying post, because that was not what I asked about *sighs* -- I need to check if I remembered to write in large, colored letters, that I'm from Denmark, that my native language is not English and that I've been schooled in both American and Brit English. Don't take this personally, I just sometimes forget that just because I'm trilingual (Danish, English, German and a smattering of Spanish) not everone else knows another language. I tend to base my fooling around with the language on how a language is built, I mix and match just because I can. Yes, sometimes it works, sometimes I can't get it past my beta reader XD -- that's when I normally know, you know, 'back to the drawing board'.

Aye, I was a little thrown by the suggestion of ever using the N word as well. Wouldn't dream of it, unless my villain was a KKK member, really. I don't even like having African American characters using it, unless it's cannon. Even then I'll try to worm my way out of it LOL

Sorry for the lecture Xim, it really wasn't aimed at you...
I am glad that you are well aware of the implications of that word...
I guess that I wasn't aware of how well other cultures are taught about the US's inhumanities.
We have some horrible history to work with, and when people from here tell people that aren't from here that it's ok to use the "N" word, well I just Pop, lol...
For lack of a better word, that was me, popping, lol....
Why I let her get to me, I shall never know?
Perhaps it is because she and I are so similar, and yet so diametrically opposed!

To be fair - that wasn't what was actually said.

'but I'd no more use those phrases in a story...than I'd use the word nigger.'

Not exactly on topic, certainly, but not an approval of using the word in any context whatsoever.

True, she said that if her gay beta said that it was ok to write in that word than she would have no issue with it...
Of course she didn't say if said gay beta was an African American, and yet that would make it ok?

It's good for me to learn that Joy can pretty much say whatever she wants to on LJ and people will rally to her side.

I should have just kept my mouth shut!

Okay kids, each to one's corner, or there'll be no ice cream tonight.

1. I'm sure Joy didn't mean it that way. Re-reading the comment, I seriously doubt it. She just has a way with words sometimes that um... goes down the drain, yes. I've had to ask her to clarify comments once or twice before. Mostly just for me to be absolutely sure she's saying what I think she's saying.

2. No, she can't say anything she wants. Well, okay, she can, just as much as the rest of us can do the same. There's always the option of clarifying afterwards what we mean. I seem to remember having pissed people off by saying something they mistook for something bad, where I never meant it that way. *coughsbibliocough* Sometimes it's because we don't think before we say something, sometimes it's because people just plain misunderstand what we mean. And don't even get me started on the misunderstandings due to cultural differences, let alone language barriers.

It's the problem about not having voices and body language to lean on.

Noted, point(s) taken, and sorry. I really didn't mean to kick anything off :-(

*g* just for future reference - 'no ice cream' is not much of a threat to me, I can't stand the stuff ;-)

Heh, that's okay -- I've just had other people having lengthy discussions on my LJ before -- mostly I get up in the morning to a boat load of comments that come in via my email -- it was just to stave that off.

Oh, no ice cream? Are you a pod person? I thought everyone liked ice cream. Hmmm, okay, it wouldn't be a huge threat for me either, now if anyone threatened to take away my coffee that would be an entirely different thing LOL

Psssst - threaten to take her TEA away....

Heh, tea for me. Get between me and my tea and expect *serious* trouble ;-)

::shoves pod under table with foot and hopes that nobody else notices::

*sighs*

Okay, hun. Let me be clear. I did not say that if my gay *alpha reader* said I could use the N word, it would be okay. I said if he said that using gay metaphor or euphemism was okay, then I'd take his word for it. Who else but a gay person would teach me what's acceptable and what isn't where those phrases are concerned?

I brought up the N word for a reason. We all agree that it's not an acceptable word because we've learned, over time, that it's not okay, that it's derogatory. Only other blacks can use that word and get away with it, just as gays can, if they so choose, use the word "fag" and get away with it. Some have issue with those metaphors and euphemisms and don't find them at all amusing. If we white people have learned not to use the N word, couldn't we straight people learn not to use the other stuff as well? That was my point.

Well, what we learn here is mostly up to the teachers. I mean, we learn the basics, but it's up to the teachers what to focus on - my english teacher at Business School was very interested in the South and in Martin Luther King, the racial problems etc, so we got that alongside the marketing related stuff *g*

History was never pretty, ANYWHERE. Just check out the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, Hitler's idea of a clean, Arian race. Really, the American history is just shorter with as much shit in it. The only thing we can do is learn about it and from it. Nothing good ever came of not speaking of it.

As much as I don't always agree with Joy, she knows that, and she's accepted that. The same way that I've accepted she doesn't always agree with me. I think what she meant was that the beta reader doesn't always have the final word. In the end, it's up to the writer to decided to follow the beta reader's suggestions or not, using a term/word that they are opposed to.

No, but I have always come across that way with you, haven't I? No offense was intended, my dear. :)

*Staggers out of sick bed to make comment*

As you know, I can read anything. There isnt much that will throw me out of a good fic, be it bad spelling (I'm guilty of that), bad gramar (also guilty), weir pharses or even britishisms in and American fic. I dont mind and I dont care. Bad characterisation doesnt even bother me all that much. Thing is, everyone sees their OTP or OT3 differently according to who the reader is.

I enjoy writing (or at least I did) and so I relied on my beta's to fix any mistakes. Perhaps I have given too much power to my beta's in the past and perhaps its time for me to learn some of the lessons they keep trying to teach me, but as I write for myself, and not for anyone else really, I dont much care.

So to answer you, I love your unique style, your slant on things, your characterisation, and your enthusiasm. Long may it continue

*Collapese in coughing head*

*hands you tea with honey*

Try not to hurt yourself, kay?

I can let a lot go by when reading, but there are specific things that will make me close a window. Bad grammar beyond what can be simple mistakes, horrible characterization, but you knew that already LOL and people calling Ray K 'Stanley' in fic -- all the way through! There's a special hell for the latter kind...

I would just assume it's good, creative writing - I wouldn't even have thought about it being a translation thing! :-)

Yay! Then all is well *g* -- I just know some people are so militant about grammar and language that it's hard to get away with playing around with the language.

I like different sayings from other countries, because it makes it more enjoyable to me. It's more you.

Thank you *g* -- yeah, I was hoping you'd all take it that way. I like fooling around with the language and I don't mind letting it shine through that I'm not from the US or UK *g*

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